Something New Every Week
Something New Every Week
Exploring the Photography Industry and Beyond with Gary Pageau: From Craft Beers and Football to Digital Disruption
Are you ready to traverse the fascinating landscape of the photography industry with a seasoned insider? Gear up for an enlightening conversation with our distinguished guest, Gary Pageau, a renowned figure whose illustrious career spans across journalism, marketing and most notably, photography. Get a firsthand account of his professional journey, that started as a humble newsletter editor in 1987 and carried him to the helm of the Photo Marketing Association (PMA) in 2012, and now, as the spearhead of the Dead Pixel Society and his own marketing consultancy.
Now, let's trade the camera for a football and apron as we navigate through the tantalizing world of craft beers, mouth-watering barbecues, and NFL predictions. Gary and I, as ardent fans of the Detroit Lions and New York Jets, share our fair share of heartbreaks and hopes for our beloved teams. We discuss the Ford family's sweeping changes in Lions' upper management and assess our teams' chances in the upcoming season.
Then, we return to our professional lanes as we discuss the dynamic trends shaping the photography business landscape. We investigate the digital revolution of the school photography industry and discuss the emerging opportunities for photographers to engage directly with parents. Hear insightful discourses about innovative business models of companies like Photo Day and Glossy Finish, and how they are disrupting the conventional norms. Lastly, don't miss the chance to get insider tips on podcasting from Gary himself as he shares his knack for attracting guests from diverse backgrounds and industries. This captivating conversation promises to enlighten, entertain, and leave you with a renewed perspective on photography and beyond!
All right, another episode of Something New Every Week. This week, I am here with Gary Pajot, who I actually practiced And if you've listened to my episodes, I butcher everybody's names. Gary, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here today.
Speaker 2:Hi Jason, How are you today? Did I get you before or after your run today?
Speaker 1:I am just a post-run, a little mop off, and here I am a little stinky and sweaty, but I'm here in my basement Nice.
Speaker 2:I'll show you after the episode. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I've been having some good runs. That's definitely one of the things I want to talk to you about today.
Speaker 1:So Gary is from the great state of Michigan. He's been a photographer, i think, about as long as I have, which is too long to admit. And as we're talking, gary, my video freezes. Don't worry about it. If it goes off, don't worry about it. We're good But long time friend. We've spent a lot of time at conferences and trade shows and margaritas and all of that stuff. So let's start with just a quick intro. If we don't know, gary, tell us a little bit about yourself, okay.
Speaker 2:Like you said, i've been in the industry for approximately a thousand years. I was George Eastman's paper boy. Yeah, that's how far back I go.
Speaker 1:No, actually it's funny.
Speaker 2:I've been in the industry since 1987. But I don't really consider myself a photographer in the sense that I respect photographers too much to compare what I do to what they do. But I have been in the industry more or less as a journalist since 1987, where I started, as with the photo marketing association Rest in Peace, as a newsletter editor, whatnot, and I worked my way up in the organization to stay there almost 25 years. When I left in 2012, i was responsible for all the publications, corporate communications, marketing research and a couple of the things.
Speaker 2:And then I'm 2012 basically just disagreed with the direction the organization was going at the time. I remember, and it was a rough time for a lot of people in the industry. And then I just kind of struck out of my own with my own marketing consulting company. And then about five, six years ago I kind of started. I had a kind of a secret Facebook group called the Dead Pixel Society, which was sort of a joke from the PMA days which I can get into if you want later.
Speaker 2:And so I literally had a friend of mine in the industry who was a supplier of vendor And he said if you turn this into a newsletter, i'll sponsor it. And I was like, ok, because I did that at PMA for 20-some years And so that's where the Dead Pixel Society became much more public. So right now I like to call it a community for the industry. It is basically serving people who serve photographers.
Speaker 2:That's why I like to put it So think of retailers online companies, photo labs, all those kind of folks are basically my readership, because I figured the last in the world needed was yet another photography blog or site or whatnot. And then so our activities include a weekly newsletter And then we have in-person events. We just had one partnered with a group called Deskoop, which is a printing organization, so we had a photo, so I did the education at that event. So it was photos, photography, specific education for people in that segment. And then we also have obviously a podcast, so we have the women doing this. We've got about 120-some episodes out now.
Speaker 2:We started out as sort of a lark during COVID because I didn't want to do a podcast, because at PMA we did have a podcast called the DEMAcast And I knew how much work that was And I said I don't want to do that. But when COVID came, i'm like I better double down on content, i better give people more stuff, and so I started a podcast And a friend of mine in the industry said why don't you read the news? And I said no one wants that. And so I said but I'll do an interview format and you can be my first guest.
Speaker 2:So, that's what happened, and then I started out as the usual podcast stuff, where you start out with one, then you do another one, and then I do a Zoom, two a month, and then three a month, and now it's every week, and that is what I'm interested in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a lot that I want. So I didn't know your involvement in PMA. Maybe I did and maybe I forgot, And I think a lot of photographers don't know too. I think most wedding photographers don't know a lot about PMA, or obviously it's been several years now since PMA disbanded. The only reason that I know about PMA is because when I worked at WPPI, there was a lot of conversation about it and my boss, Lauren Wendell, was very involved with PMA and the people there, especially with Photo Plus in New York City and all the printing people and stuff like that, And there was a board meeting that we would host And I remember- Actually, i think you're thinking of PMDA, which was the Photographers Association, because No, no, no, no no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:And I mean I remember PMDA as well, and the reason that it sticks in my head is that there was a couple of players in that and I may be getting this wrong. There were a couple of players during that time who were trying to restart something new and they wanted us to help them, and I don't remember the Mark Lane I think was his name Was one of the guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i wouldn't have known that Mark's with ACI which is a photo lab.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, it was Mark Lane. Sorry, And I remember as soon as you write, Mark is with.
Speaker 2:ACI, you just log off, you're gonna get it. Yeah, i don't know it's anyway.
Speaker 1:They tried to restart something and there was a lot of.
Speaker 2:There was definitely some fighting going on, but all over was the Imaging Alliance.
Speaker 1:I think so. yes, The Imaging Alliance.
Speaker 2:The Imaging Alliance. Was Jerry Grossman, right? yes, and he's the publisher of Digital Imaging Reporter, yes, and what had happened was is PMA was struggling at PMDA was the Manufacturers Association, right? So it was the camera hardware people, and so they basically took over the assets of PMA and tried to restart it as the Imaging Alliance, and that went for about another four or five years And so, yeah, but Jerry's still around, still does his newsletter and his publication, but the Imaging Alliance itself is no more. There really is no industry association like PMA was trying to be.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was such a huge organization at one point. I remember, and I remember the numbers of people who would go to the trade show and the conferences And, just like all trade shows and conferences in our industry right now, they're all really suffering. And I wanna hear about DeScoop because, well, first of all, it was in my city.
Speaker 2:Yes, we did come together.
Speaker 1:Still weird for me to say my city in St Louis. I don't know if it'll ever it's home, but it in New York is my home. But how did it go? and how was St Louis? And so this is like first, second iteration of it. right Of what DeScoop.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, DeScoop. The organization has been around since for about 18, 19 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, right.
Speaker 2:So it started out as a user group for people who were HP customers of the Indigo platform, so basically the people who printed on Indigo presses And it's independent of HP, but HP is a big sponsor of it, a big supporter of it, but it is its own thing. And so this is so back when I was with PMA, i used to go attend DeScoop. There's so many photo labs were using HP Indigo so a lot of our members were there And I would give industry presentations. Photo books are growing or they're declining or whatever, whatever our research was showing at the time. So then, after I left PMA, i actually did that a couple more years And then what happened was is HP kind of felt they saturated the market with the Indigo product and they kind of said you know what? we don't really need to talk about photo much anymore at DeScoop, it's all about labeling and packaging. And then so I stopped going because there was really nothing you know.
Speaker 2:And then, as we were coming, as they were coming out of COVID, i knew some people on the board of DeScoop and they said you know, and I was already looking to have my own event because I was doing another industry event, that with a golf outing that is no longer in existence, and I was like, okay, you know, i'm looking at my doing my own thing. And I was just chatting with those of these board members and he said, well, why don't you do it at DeScoop? You could program some of the education. And I'm thinking, as you know from doing events, how obscenely expensive it can be to put on an event. You know, i mean just you know, people who attend events have no idea You're talking about a food and beverage minimum, or a hotel minimum, or you know rooms. You know, and I'm looking at you know, little old me trying to run my own gig thing or figuring out how I'm going to. You know, come up with the deposits for that. And then DeScoop says why don't you have your programming at our event?
Speaker 2:So we did that and did it last year And it went well and we got invited back this year and it was bigger and better this year than last year And so hope to continue. So, really, what we're trying to do, what their objective is, they want to get more of the photo people to come back.
Speaker 1:And what?
Speaker 2:my objective is to provide content to an audience so that my name stays in front of people and people sent up for my newsletter. So it's always good when objectives align. Is it always in St Louis? No, it moves around. It's your first time in Indianapolis. Okay, it just moves around. So yeah, i'd been to St Louis, had not been in a long time, enjoyed it quite a bit. I actually took the rail from the airport to the hotel, which I guess people don't do. No, but I did it, it was fine.
Speaker 1:I don't know. No, i mean, i guess middle of it. I've never done it actually, and when I, like you, like to use public transportation And from the airport to downtown St Louis five bucks. Yeah, it's five bucks and it's actually, from what I understand, a nice ride. You go through some interesting neighborhoods and You see, some things.
Speaker 1:It's probably much faster than driving by car, to be honest, and it is very well attached to the airport and it just when I was commuting here from New York and where I was going I always needed to rent a car and That light rail is such a shame because people get shot on a You're near Detroit, so it was very positive.
Speaker 2:The only trouble I had was actually finding the, the station itself, My hotel, because it was like a block and a half from my hotel and apparently my. Even with my iPhone, my sense of direction was challenged. I had some trouble actually, plus, the signage was terrible.
Speaker 2:I mean I signage at this, you know, to find it, you know the actual Stairwell to get down to the, to this, to the station platform was was a born and I'd asked for help. But no, that was great. Yeah, and then so the event itself. It's like a lot of conferences. It was at the America Center.
Speaker 2:Yeah so they try to keep you there. There wasn't much there, you know, to do outside, but we did have a. since you asked about St Louis, what I thought we did have, a Friend of mine took me to the Vary Sheplets.
Speaker 1:Oh, she's lovely. Yeah, chef, please.
Speaker 2:So I went to a micro brewery there friend, and then we went, and then after that we went to the D scoop public Event, like their big party, which is at the City Museum.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is crazy. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's where COVID started. What's that?
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure that's where covert came from.
Speaker 2:So, for those of you who do explain what that is yes, i had no idea, it's like. It's like someone's fever dream or something.
Speaker 1:Well, that's exactly what it is. So, for those of you who have never been to st Louis, the City Museum is This is eight-story building, an industrial building that Was turned into a welder's dream and and basically what it was is. This one guy and some friends somehow got access to this building, or it was leased to them, or they want to buying the building and They just created this, this fun house of mainly for kids and Climbing, and but it is it's this crazy like three-story slide and There are areas that adults can't fit in and only kids can fit in, and It is just.
Speaker 1:And then the rooftop has a bus that hangs over The side of the building. It is just. It is a crazy, crazy experience.
Speaker 2:It's like a giant, adult-sized jungle gym.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's, that's a great way to describe it and it's one of the gems of st Louis, for sure. And there were definitely times I took my kids there. We completely lost them because we could go in the areas where they were climbing And yeah it's, it's kind of a lot of touching of stuff, but I mean they were obviously set up for as an entertainment venue too, because they had a band on one of the floor.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, with a bar and all that. so it's not just a kids venue, it's a Grown-up venue too, but it's definitely got some You know, if you haven't been there, you haven't seen anything like it.
Speaker 1:Let's put it that way for sure, for sure, and that's kind of the way to describe st Louis in general. Oh, but yeah, beer and barbecue is great here. Sloughly is not one of my favorite. It was when I first moved here sloughly was, but I found some other micro breweries that. It's actually not a micro, it's good, quite a large. It serves a lot in the Midwest but has some really tasty there. There fall beers are really good.
Speaker 1:But yeah, st Louis Has some really good beers. It's not. It's. It's known for Budweiser, but the people aren't aware that 25, 30 years ago they lay when, when imbev bought Budweiser, they laid off all these brew masters and Sloughly and a bunch of the other ones all opened up their own breweries and the result of that, 20 years later, is these really fantastic beers, that that and breweries that have come out of it. But yeah, so alright, moving on, i Have some more fun stuff to talk about. We're gonna get into football, because Gary is one of my good friends on Facebook who only can enjoy The the pain of being a Detroit Lions fan.
Speaker 1:Me being a Jets fan, we share a lot of pain together, so when I'm suffering, he's there, right there with me. So my friend and and this hate for Aaron Rodgers. So I want to start with let's start with the Lions. the Lions I think they're gonna have a great season and By let's hear your prediction, i'm gonna put you on the spot Prediction NFC they're gonna make the playoffs this year. I don't think there's a, there's a doubt in my mind What you're thinking eight game, nine game, ten game win season this year.
Speaker 2:Oh well, 17 games are going to win 12.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, I mean I mean, you know, i mean, I mean, but I say that every year, so I mean I'm never right. So you know, the challenge of being a Lions fan is being perpetually, you know, in a state of, you know, kool-aid infused optimism at this point of the year. Right, they look great in the training camp. They drifted well, all the other stuff, we'll see what happens. I mean, obviously last year was a great season for to be a Lions fan because they started out as usual and then got better, which is what you like to see, and they just had a lot of grit and a lot of character that you like to see.
Speaker 2:I think mostly, you know most people who don't follow the Lions I know this isn't a sports podcast, but it just kind of is a general thing is what they don't understand is, you know, for years it was run by the Ford family And a few years ago the daughter of the Ford family took over, sheila Hamp Johnson, and she just changed the upper management completely and brought in people who you know, more committed to winning. You know, there's always the belief the Ford should have just sell the team and just get out, because they're clearly just, you know, using it to have a play thing.
Speaker 2:But they weren't interested in winning. And you know, so much good talent has gone through, just like the Jets. There's so much good talent has gone through that is that either goes off and is wildly successful elsewhere or is just frittered away. So the belief is, this season there will be, this will be, this will be there. This will be the year which is very unlike a Lions person, because usually we're talking about next year already. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:You went out with football. It's really hard And then, okay, so that's your prediction I'm going to 12th game season win season. Aaron Rodgers moving to the Jets I hated our Aaron Rodgers until he became a jet.
Speaker 2:Well, you got to respect the game. I mean, yes, you got to respect it. We just I did. I just hate him because of you know, just because paying a price because of the Green Bay Detroit rivalry is more the oldest and in the end, plus you know, he just did so many times, He just did a lot of his miracle comebacks against the Lions, So right.
Speaker 1:That is where the heat stems from.
Speaker 2:I wish you well in your division.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been. It's been a lot of fun and me and my little guy. He holds that. You know, in St Louis we don't have a football team here. He holds the like the giant banner and flag. You know, going to school every day and getting made fun of as he wears his name at the jersey and soon to be Aaron jersey, Aaron Rodgers jersey, like that. So all right, real quick. How's Michigan going to do this year? You know I'm being the Irish fans, So we got to go to college football.
Speaker 2:real quick, oh gosh. You know honestly I don't follow college sports. that closely, I mean obviously I live in Lansing, which is next to East Lansing, where's Michigan State is.
Speaker 1:Right. Sorry, Michigan State fan My bad.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, that's fine. And then and then down the road is Michigan, and I have children who attended both. So I generally am Switzerland in that regard, Generally speaking, it's always fun to watch Michigan, But I don't live or die by Michigan. I mean generally speaking. Most people like me who's not affiliated with either tend to follow Michigan during football in Michigan State for basketball, That's typically.
Speaker 1:Gotcha Cool, cool, cool, all right, and so let's get back to industry stuff. So you're ban your podcast and so you're a hundred. You just in January hit a hundred episodes. Congratulations on that. I know that is a. That's a big feat with anything. When you started the podcast during the pandemic, like I, we talked about that before we got on Mm. Hmm, you know, a weekly episode is hard. You know you record episodes and you try and give yourself a little padding so that you can get the episodes edited and up and you want to keep them relevant. You're, you're. You're a little bit like mine. Mine's a little more casual in the sense, but you bring in a lot, a lot of on the printing side and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, i mean I've had I just try to honestly anybody I think is interesting. So I've had anywhere from you know CEOs, camera strollers to Joe McNally, i mean I've had, yeah those are kinds of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I try not to be too, you know, boxed in in terms of you know, if it's imaging sort of related, i tend to do it. The other thing I do which might be of interest if you have a business audience is about a third of my guests are just general business.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, because I consider myself to have a B2B podcast and there's just, you know, there's a lot of good information that you know people have to share about, you know, having a CPA, marketing and all that kind of stuff that's applicable to my audience, that it doesn't have to be like specified. So, yeah, yeah, and I enjoyed.
Speaker 1:I enjoyed your. I got to ask how you got Kawasaki on your show. I know you were, you were, you were, you were attending something, but it's still quite a feat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that well that if you listen to it closer, that was a when I called it classic episode that was an old interview I did with him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, back when I was with PMA, So that had to be like 2008.
Speaker 1:I think it was 2008.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Yeah, and so what happened was is we hired guy?
Speaker 2:to speak at some of our conferences and part of the deal was he would do an interview for the magazine. I got to know guy fairly, i would say fairly well, but he spoke for PMA a few times. He came to our. We had a show in London, so he came to our London show, and so part of that deal was, you know, he would sit for an interview for the magazine, right, and so I? so I did that. And then what happened was is I was going through some old stuff and I found that audio file and I would go. You know if I clean this up, this is actually kind of interesting. Some of the stuff is dated, obviously.
Speaker 1:It is, but it's interesting.
Speaker 2:So I pinged him and I said I asked him. I said is it okay if I release this Cause? I didn't want to just dredge up something old and have him say oh, i talked to him 15 years ago, i don't want to. You know, i don't want you to release that. And he gave me permission to use it. So I said cool. So yeah, no, he's an interesting, interesting guy, if you will.
Speaker 1:Right And no pun intended. So, and then you know, one of the things I like to ask is about current trends and you know you're interviewing a lot of different people as, as you know, i've been getting the the, the little bit of feedback that I've been getting, or the lot of feedback that I've been getting on the wedding photographer side and and school sports and stuff like that. There's a lull that's happening this spring a little dip, especially with weddings. There's been a big dip. Most of my friends and people that I'm having on the podcast are talking about 20 to 25% dip in their weddings. Wow, that much, that much.
Speaker 1:But it's hard to really, the metric is really hard to, you know, get a grasp of because they were all coming out of the pandemic. So they were all up 20, 25%, but they're still saying they're still down post pre-pandemic. Okay, so it's like a weird message. I'm saying 20, 25%, but they were all. If you were not super busy coming out of the pandemic, you did something wrong. But like, what do you've been hearing? as far as where we're at? You just came back from Descoupes. So like, what's the temperature?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, i mean Descoupes is an output conference right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And certainly in the output game it's relatively slow growth at this point. Like you said, you know, during the pandemic people had great years because people said at home I made photo books, so I mean it was kind of crazy. So I mean people didn't want to talk about it, but I know several companies that had very good pandemics from a revenue standpoint. You don't want to say anything good about something that killed 5 million people worldwide, obviously, but you know so. You know so the output side of the business is used to kind of a slower growth mentality right now. So I mean, so they kind of adjust to it And they're always looking for niche products and things that you know you can add margin on, which is why they go to Waldecor, because you know Waldecor is a great product because it's high margin and it's relatively high ring and it's, you know, relatively easy to make as opposed to, like a photo book, is fairly complex, for example, to manufacture. So you know, i think from that standpoint actually some of the belief is fairly optimistic.
Speaker 2:Again, there's more consumer side. It's probably optimistic because if the economy continues to slow as it is, there's a belief that photography output is relatively insulated from a recession, because when times are great it's a good gift. When times are tough, it's still a good gift. That kind of thing If you want to give something. You know a great print made with your you know is good. You know I haven't heard that much on the wedding side. I know, like I do a lot of work within the school photography space, which is volume, what we call volume photography, and that business has changed dramatically over the last few years because you've had life touches was the big dog And their business has been rapidly declining And so what's that?
Speaker 2:Well, i mean I like everyone, to thrive, so I'm more of a big story.
Speaker 2:But I mean they've gone from essentially 70, 75% of the market down to maybe half that, And so that's going to create a lot of opportunity for people. I just did something, an interview with somebody who was a sports photographer kind of Chris Keane out CK visuals, And he did it And he had a he was a basically freelance photo journalist, sports photographer, And he saw that that business was drying up right. So he's gotten into volume photography. He's been very so. He pivoted that just before COVID and he's doing fine now. So I think there's going to be a lot of people getting into that space, like some of your wedding shooters are probably maybe going to have to. You know, going to try to pick up a few preschools here and there and things like that, Cause it's relatively low barrier to entry If you know what you're doing and if you are, myself included, Business savvy, right, I mean, I mean I was just at the SPAC conference in January, which is-.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, i'd like to hear about that too. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the SPAC conference, it's basically a giant trade show. It's not nothing like WPPI used to be or currently is, but it's like two ballrooms kind of size, 10 by 10 boosts, and they were up a couple hundred attendees in January. They had a lot of first timers coming in. That's a very much a show. how do I do this Right? How do I? how do I? what lights do I need? What software do I need?
Speaker 2:And again, there's a lot of reasons why that business is changing a lot, a lot of it's technology. People are getting away from paper forms in the prepay format that used to be there. And now you know I don't know if you've, i don't know how old your son is, but if you're having school pictures taken, he probably you're probably now can sign up to have a text of the images sent to your phone. Oh for sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that's all relatively new And that's great.
Speaker 2:People really like that, because back in the day of school photography, the client was the school And the photographers very rarely dealt with parents, right. And now, because of digital technology, they can market directly to parents and they can say you know, hey, you know, do you want a Christmas ornament with that for a grandma or something like that. So there's a lot of upsell opportunities I think here, and I think that's if you've got people in your audience who are photographers, who are, you know, looking to, maybe you know, make up some of that 20, 25% business. I mean that's an opportunity.
Speaker 1:I totally agree with you And it's something that I kind of fell into, with my kid playing football And the coach coming to me and asking me if I wanted to do pictures. And I did it during COVID and then I've been expanding on it And I just started doing all senior banners for the high school and then I sell those. They can buy prints of those banners And it's it's. It's become pretty, pretty lucrative, but I never would have done it if I had to deal with paper forms and all that bullshit, because It it just was, even though, like you know, labs like Miller's will provide you with all the stuff that you need. It just just seemed out of reach to me, whereas companies like photo day, which do take, you know, a little bit of your profits.
Speaker 2:They just do so much work for you and Well, that's the thing is, you can decide how much in it or how much you don't want to be in life. For example, i'm good friends with the high Mario who rents coming to call glossy finish.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm and he's. He's got sports photography businesses that run in major tournaments He's actually gonna be at my podcast in the next few weeks, cool And He's got our thing called GF crew, which basically you can. It's a Facebook page, so just look forward and you can use his exact same process For and it's basically a weekend warriors guys who are, and girls I should say, you know men and women who want to supplement their income or whatever. But if they'd before they make it full-time and what his model is, it's kind of different, is It's? it's it's a prepaid model completely and where you You mark it to the parents ahead of time and you say who wants to sign up for pictures, and they choose a price You know $20, $40 and you, the photographer just takes pictures of those kids and that's it, and then they just give the parents the pictures and And that's the end of it.
Speaker 2:It's a service. I mean, if they want to print, they. I mean There are ways to print, but generally speaking, your job is to sell photography as a service. So mom doesn't have to stand on the sidelines on her by honor, with herself, and it's been very successful for people who know how to work that system.
Speaker 2:Hmm now it's, you know, not for everybody, in the sense that you know There are people who do the spray and pray right, where they just want to upload a gallery and hope to gosh that someone goes online And clicks on a night kind of downloads a print, but, as you probably know, that's not great, yeah, and so I think more of a direct marketing model Like, again, photo day and some of those folks have that kind of approach as well I think that's much more successful. We're much more targeted. You're not trying to sell to everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's, it's been, it's been a great system and you know, you know the labs that support it always do a good job. If there's ever an issue, they get prints right out. So that that's. That's great. Well, cool, all right, i think we're gonna wrap up there, and you know it's, it's nice to hear that The industry is still thriving somewhat and it's just different It's just different.
Speaker 1:It's that's it. Yeah, that's what my one. When we first had kids. I had a photographer that I was working for and I was so tired as a new parent and And I said, does it get any better? And he said no, it just doesn't get better, it just gets different.
Speaker 2:I can recommend. So can I, so can I? I mean, it's just it kind of what you can do now with a, with a photography Career, and even in a retail career or not likeers, you can kind of do with it what you want. Yeah, you can make it as big as you want to be. I mean, i know people who are very happy with one or two retail stores. Right, they don't want to be the next Brits camera or the both cameras of the world anymore. There's a lot of ways you can, you know, monopolize niche photography markets, right, and you can do very well in it. It's just, you just got to be smarter about it.
Speaker 1:That's true, that's true, and I think that's a life lesson, just in general, taking that same sentence. So all right, well, thanks for being on this week's episode of something new every week And really appreciate you being here.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for having us wishes.
Speaker 1:All right, we'll see you guys next week. If you had know someone that wants to be on this show, please let me know. I'm not hard to find. We'll catch you next week. Take care everyone.