Something New Every Week
Something New Every Week
Capturing Life's Moments: Elizabeth Messina's Journey in Photography
Embark on a journey through the lens of Elizabeth Messina, the high-profile premier wedding photographer whose artistic prowess transcends the traditional realm of photography into an intimate narrative of life's precious moments. In this riveting episode, Elizabeth unveils the intricate layers of her creative process and the instinctual approach she employs to capture those unique, unexpected moments that breathe life into every photograph. From her early days in art school to the thriving business she now runs, Elizabeth shares her story, signature style, and the challenges she navigates in the realm of photography.
Delve further into the conversation as Elizabeth discloses the profound impact that the shift from exclusively film to the incorporation of digital has had on her artistic style. She opens up about her four books, collaborations, and an emotionally stirring project for a friend battling breast cancer. The conversation takes an enlightening detour as Elizabeth emphasizes the importance of diverse representation in the industry and how her work with women resonates with the powerful narrative of female empowerment.
Finally, as we traverse the complex relationship between social media and photography, Elizabeth shares her insights about the challenges and opportunities this digital era presents. She gives listeners a glimpse into her new course, 'The Art of Boudoir,' and shares her ambition to help budding photographers discover their unique creative lens. Wrapping up the episode, Elizabeth reflects on the evolution of photography as an art form and its transformation into a beautiful medium of personal expression. Tune in for this inspiring episode that promises to leave you with a newfound appreciation for the art of photography.
Show notes:
Direct link to her brand new course!
Some sneak peeks:
Reel one.
Reel two.
Reel three.
https://theartedept.com/
https://www.elizabethmessina.com/
https://www.instagram.com/elizabethmessina/
https://www.elizabethmessinaweddings.com/
Hey there, thanks for tuning in to Something New Every Week with your host, me, jason Group. Each week, I'm going to give you something new that's happening in our photographic world just some great conversations with my friends and what's going on right now. Something New Every Week is sponsored by Miller's Lab. Miller's Professional Imaging is the largest professional lab organization in the United States. They provide professional prints and press products for professional photographers in all 50 states and Canada and they're just a great company. If you don't know them, go check them out MillersLabcom.
Speaker 1:All right, welcome to another episode of Something New Every Week. Snoo with me and my co-host, jackie Tobin, who I am thrilled to be doing these with now, and it's just been a lot of fun. It has been a few weeks, jackie, since we've had a new guest, but I am excited for this week's guest because this has been. It's been so long since we chatted and many of you, I know, are huge fans of her and her work and her body of work, and it's been fun catching up with her a couple of times last week and, gosh, it's just amazing, you still continue to do it. So I'm here with Elizabeth, messina with me, and Jackie and Elizabeth say hello.
Speaker 2:Hello and thank you, gosh.
Speaker 1:you guys, I feel like we've known each other so long and I'm really happy to be here, we have known each other a long time and I'm going to let Jackie ask some questions. But I don't know if you remember and I don't know if we've ever talked about it since I left, since I was with WPPI, but you and I shot a wedding together in Jamaica a million years ago.
Speaker 2:I did not remember that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we've never talked about it. And it was. I was the videographer, I know. I mean, I've only shot one in Jamaica that I remember Exactly what you're talking about, it was not the most fun wedding in the world.
Speaker 2:I don't think we're supposed to say what they would have.
Speaker 1:Well, I could say now it was a million years ago.
Speaker 2:No names, man, no names, yeah no names, no names.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was a beautiful location. If you remember it was on like some estate it was. I can't remember the name. We're not going to name names now.
Speaker 2:It was Ian Fleming.
Speaker 1:Is that what it was? I?
Speaker 2:think so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you might be right. It was like up on the top of the hill. It was an absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous spot. And you know, traveling in and out of Jamaica not all of it was the couple's fault at all, it was just that traveling in and out of Jamaica is a nightmare.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and don't you think in general, like traveling for photography is it feels like maybe it's really glamorous, but the truth is it's pretty intense work and it's there's a lot of stuff. That's just.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you and I, and they're very wary about people coming into the country to work, so you kind of got to be careful with that, and just traveling back and forth can be treacherous as well. But it was like what are the few weddings I filmed as a videographer and it was a pleasure working with you and I don't think I've ever told you that. So it was. Yeah, it's fine. We're probably looking at like 15, 16 years ago. Yeah, I'm going to turn this over to that. So, jackie, I'm going to turn it over to you. Obviously, we want to know who Elizabeth is.
Speaker 3:If you don't know who she is, to start, Well, I actually I've known Elizabeth since about 2008, because I had contacted her to be part of my first book, wedding photography unveiled, and she was one of like 20 photographers and she was so gracious. We'd never met before. Just on the phone I called up. I'm like I need a hundred of your images and like she sent them to me and you know she was part of the book. And then we worked on another book, the luminous portrait, in 2012, which also had a Chinese edition in addition to an English edition. And so we go way back.
Speaker 3:You know you, elizabeth. You've been in this industry for a long time. You're, you know, high profile premier wedding photographer, portrait fashion editorial. You do a lot of different things. You're an author you had a bestselling book on breast cancer on the New York Times bestseller list. Correct me if I'm wrong and you know you're prolific. You've evolved over time, but you still maintain this like signature look. So just talk to us a about like where you are now and like where you came from. How did that get to you to where you are now?
Speaker 2:Right. So at first I just want to say when you first called me to interview me for your book, that was so thrilling. Like you know, people ask you like when did you know? You know it feels successful or make it Like that was a moment for me that felt really special and, honestly, the fact that we became friends through that process was just a bonus. So I just yeah thank you yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think you know it's. It's funny to like be at a certain age where you are looking back and have a body of work and have reference points right. I think for me, what a lot of people don't know is I was a photographer and I was doing much of what I did for many years before I actually like had a business. You know what I mean I was. I graduated from art school, the San Francisco Art Institute, in like 93 maybe I can't even remember and I was a waitress for 10 years after.
Speaker 2:I graduated from art school because I went to a proper art school where they didn't teach you a lot about how to get jobs, but they taught you a lot about some of the things that I still love today, which is why do you make images? Do they have impact? Are you telling stories that you want to tell? Are you? You know what I mean? Like it really challenged me as an artist. But the business part, honestly, it took a long time.
Speaker 2:And again, because you know we're referencing our age, but there was no social media. There was no, it was just, you know, me, by myself, in a dark room most of the time. And I think that the truth is the blessing in that is, I developed a lot as a photographer and made a lot of mistakes with nobody watching, so I was a little freer, I think, than people are today, where everything's, like you know, instantly being seen. And then it wasn't until, let me think, it was years later that my daughter was born and my friend was getting married and she offered me you know, I don't even $500. And I was like what? Yeah, I don't shoot weddings, but you know, you can figure it out, and I, literally I brought my one month old daughter to my first wedding, with my mother as my assistant and I took photographs and I nursed in between portraits and whatever, and I felt a little bit in love, like weddings were, I don't know. It was like a beautiful light, emotion, all the things I was already drawn to and I don't know.
Speaker 2:Just it kind of like built on that and I was able to have children and work and make artwork and I think I'm not sure if I'm answering your question directly, but I think the reason I'm still here and I'm still able to be hopefully a little bit relevant is because my love of photography came way before my career and so my desire to shoot and get better is very like it's inside me. So I'm always wanting to be better. I'm always I'm still curious, you know, and I think I've always had although made people don't don't know this totally a diversified career, Like I worked as a photojournalist for several years. I have always done portraits on the side or personal projects on the side, and even though I you know, weddings have like ebbed and flowed over the years, I always, like also did other things. I think having a little diversification within my photography careers really helped me sustain and grow.
Speaker 3:I think that I don't know how many people know this. I think you're the queen of milk bath photography.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 3:Beautiful and I think the thing I love about your image is like you're known for, like doing such beautiful things with natural light and you know you started out, I think, as a film photographer. I know you do both now, but like you're known as a film photographer, with just stunning light and your images of romantic and ethereal and again like I think of you and I think of like a couple kissing with the lens player.
Speaker 2:I love all the ways you're thinking of me.
Speaker 3:So you know that I feel like you maintain that over time you're known for like how you work with photographing women creatively and like just your work with women just stunning, and I know that's really important to you. So like and I you know spoiler alert you have a course coming out soon, the art of bar. So how does that all tie in? Like maybe just talk a little bit about like your work photographing women first and how it ties into what you're announcing soon? Well, I think well.
Speaker 2:I mean, first of all, thank you for all those. I just blew it. I announced it already.
Speaker 3:Sorry.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, first of all, I feel like you know the funny thing is like, and you know me right like, yeah, I love beautiful light and making work, like I love it, like all this just soft, intimate, like impactful, natural, like yes, but part of the reason I think I'm so drawn to that is because I need a little beauty and I'm like in my life right, life is hard, my life does not look like my photographs. I think is an important distinction.
Speaker 2:Your studio looks just like your images and your aesthetic, and my studio when you saw the pictures of it perfectly or like there's a even here it's getting a little messy again, but the real work behind it, it gets real messy and crazy and you know there's kids and girls and whatever.
Speaker 2:I'm very drawn to beauty and peace because I feel like I really want that in my life. As far as like milk baths and women and stuff, I mean. Well, first of all, the milk baths just came out of. I love the idea of water and fabric and women and I played with that idea, even like when I have like remember that cover. I did the knot years ago where the woman was laying on the ground and it was stone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was over in it, my whole vision for that those. I wanted to feel like she was floating in water.
Speaker 2:So I'm really interested in that and I've had many brides throughout the years like get in pools and the ocean in dresses, like I don't know. I've just been very fortunate to have people that want to experiment with me. So I've done that a lot in my studio. And I started adding milk because I wanted a little bit of like. You know, like when the glass is a little foggy or something like I wanted to see the body and the water, but I didn't want it to be perfect. I wanted to have you know.
Speaker 2:So again, that just comes from messing around and experimenting. I think the first milk that I did was with one of my children, like I just thought, oh, this will be cool, let's play with you know.
Speaker 3:My question is what type of milk do you use? Is it? How can you have almond milk?
Speaker 2:Is it fat free? Fat free milk. My preference is organic almond or coconut milk.
Speaker 3:It is important to you. I did a story on your one story. You talked about what type of milk, the consistency and all of that and, like the, tone like coconut milk is often a little like blue.
Speaker 2:It's a little bluer and almond has a little bit more warmth to it. They're just slightly different. And how much you put in like I literally just put a little bit to see the you want it to be like a very gentle put too much and it's just like white marble or something. It looks a little hard. Yeah, it's, you know. It's funny. I was telling my husband the other day it's hard being so particular.
Speaker 3:Like I cannot.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:like I care about all those little things so much and my brain can't let it go, so but I think your attention to detail, but also not having a look forced as part of what has, like, sustained you over time and like the beauty of your imagery. I remember once we were in I don't know why I was there. We're in where we in. No, maybe we were in outside of powers for your workshop, but we were at a and then a teak, like outdoor antique, like bar or something, and you're shopping. You're shopping for props, for your photo shoots and I think, like you know if, if, if, one of us listening was to go into Elizabeth studio, just like all the props and the like. You have a love of so many things that you incorporate into your image and I think, like you're a good example of thinking outside the box, but it's so authentic to you, you know, and not like.
Speaker 2:I feel like the truth is it's just a process, right like like the truth is I love and crave minimalism. I think also many of my photos reflect that. Like I tend to have really simple backdrops and really like I try to like strip everything away, but then I also like to add things back in, so it's like I'm a I'm a minimalist collector. I don't know like I have collections with you Right now.
Speaker 3:That's perfect, and then I strip them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the way that the you know you asked earlier about women I think and you and I have talked about this privately before like being a woman in the world and growing and aging and changing is, I don't know, it's something that we all have to deal with in different ways, and how we have to reinvent ourselves and re accept ourselves. And, jason, I don't mean to leave you out of this conversation because I don't know how the journey is for men, but I think for women we have a particular pressure and I think also we're quite hard on ourselves. I don't know that men are in the same way the men that I'm close with aren't but maybe some are.
Speaker 2:I don't want to oversimplify it, but so I think early on when I found photography, I just photographed my friends, right Like when I was 12, my mom gave me a camera and I photographed my girlfriends and I would boss them around as they sit over there and put this lipstick on. I mean, I was creative, directing, but it was really just bossy, you know what I mean, and I had no idea what I was doing. The photos were quite bad, of course, like as you would expect, but I had a. I had a sense of just something that I wanted. For some reason, it was instinctual, and I think I've spent my career trying to figure out how to do that thing that I'm drawn to. But do it well and do it where I've done a lot of effort in. But I don't want you to see the effort, and I think that that's why I've been so reticent to ever like be videotaped or show my behind the scenes, because my process is like it's intense and it my photos don't show that.
Speaker 2:I hope and I think that those are two different parts of the same thing, right, and so photographing women it both of exploration in my own place in the world. I've always done self portraits, which really don't share, which I have forever, though, and I've continued to photograph my friends and family, even any career stuff I have going on. That's still a really important part is to show the women in my life, and the women that come into the higher being or come into my world through my work, how beautiful I see them and how I don't know. There's just so many unique and interesting and diverse women in the world that are all incredible, and yet we are also so hard on ourselves in some way, and so I'm kind of curious about that as an artist how to explore that and reflect back to the people I capture that to me, I'm seeing something extraordinary, and that's yeah.
Speaker 1:And to pile on that, like when we worked together that one wedding, I was secretly stalking you for most of the time Because I was, I was, I was, and mainly because I was so curious about the way that you worked, because at that time as well, there were not a lot of people who shot like you. We were kind of moving into a digital world. It was that transition time between digital and film. You were like myself, who was a. I mean, I was shooting digitally, I was shooting with a 5D Mark II for video, but I was still shooting film as well.
Speaker 1:So we talked a little bit about that and you were still shooting majority of film and you were just not ready to give up the feel that you had created and the style that you had created. And I remember you just the entire day was looking for where and you were I don't hesitate to use the word struggle, but you were looking for that spot the whole day that you were going to photograph the bride and you just it wasn't sure and you just kept looking and looking, and looking and looking. And I found that to be really inspiring. And again, I've never told you that, but I also remember I'm learning so much, Jason.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:I also remember how excited the bride was that you were going to photograph her and everybody the groom, you were just a wedding photographer right To them and whatever it was, but she hired you specifically for your portraits and for that, and I remember her talking to me about it and mentioning I'm excited to be photographed by her and just you know, that's the way that you look at women and the way that you photograph women is what has set you apart from everybody else, even though the style has evolved so much, right Well and I also think you know to your point, though I do think and this is for me, I know everyone has to have their own process, but I feel a lot of responsibility and like integrity around.
Speaker 2:If someone's hired me because they've seen my website or my Instagram or my portfolio, that that actually doesn't mean anything to them when I'm photographing them, right, because it doesn't matter if you liked something you saw, the photos that you really care about are the ones I'm making of you, and so what you described I still do, even if I'm in my studio. It's like I really lean into the work, part of it when I'm making art, like I don't ever feel. Now wait, let me preface that I do know what I'm doing to a certain degree and I have starting points and like no, I mean like- yeah, yeah, yeah, I get what you're saying, sure.
Speaker 2:To try to get someone to relax. But I also believe in the magic of the moment between you and one other person and that you never know quite what that is and sometimes the things I think are gonna be like really what it is. I'm just surprised and I find this my process is staying immersed in that, so that when something in between happens that I didn't expect that, I'm actually there ready and it. You know how it is. It usually happens when you're like, okay, great, and like pausing, and then they do something natural or different and you're like, oh, my goodness, don't move, that's perfect.
Speaker 2:You know, so it's that I love the process and I really immerse myself in it. I never feel like, oh yeah, I got this. That's not as fading as I feel. If I feel too comfortable before a job, I'm mixed in nervous.
Speaker 1:But we were not comfortable. We were not comfortable with that job at all, but I'm a dead man.
Speaker 2:We'll talk about that more after that. I'm a dead man. Let me just say that I think at one point the gentlemen that were driving the entire like because we had a remote location, yeah, threatened to leave and abandon the wedding party, the guests, all of us there, because of the things that unfolded. So that's how crazy it was, yeah we all got abandoned on the top of the mountain.
Speaker 1:We got there like an hour before you or after you and you were like frantic. You were like I don't know what is going on here I was like God Elizabeth, you just need to calm down.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, sure, jason, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Anyway. So for those people who don't know you, you sent me a PDF before and you have new projects coming up, but can you just tell us about some of the other books that you've worked on?
Speaker 2:Well, I've done four books, so far.
Speaker 2:Well, five, if you include the one I was in with Jackie. It wasn't really I was turbo, but so I did. My first book was with Jackie and she was incredible and really helped me through. It Was my editor and, like I don't know, it was deep. That was the luminous portrait. I'm still very proud of it and I still have people buying it and like DM-ing me about it.
Speaker 2:So I feel like it feels relevant and I actually looked over it recently because I was doing this new project and I was like I should really find out if I'm the same or not. Like I couldn't remember, and it really is. I am the same with some I don't know evolutions here and there. And then I did a book with a very dear friend who got breast cancer and I felt like I wanted to do something for her but cards and flowers just didn't seem to be hidden in the way I wanted. So I offered to photograph her because she had a young daughter and I thought this must be really intense for them. I've had some challenges and how things in my family with some of my kids and my parents, and I do remember personally that when something intense is happening in terms of the health of someone you love. You don't always remember what's going on in a moment. You know what I mean. Like it's so intense you're just surviving.
Speaker 2:And so that project, that book, the Silver Lining, the breast cancer book, started as a project between friends and like there was just amazing things, like her daughter used to, she had to have a double mastectomy and she couldn't hug her daughter, who was, I believe, four at the time.
Speaker 2:And so her daughter and her invented this thing where they did leg hugs and the daughter would wrap herself around her mom's legs. And I just felt like cancer and hospitals and medical stuff is all so challenging and hard Like. Why did the photos also have to be ugly and bad light? So I thought let me photograph her in a way that shows her her beauty even amidst this just devastation. And it was much later that she decided hey, what if we like, put this out there. I said whatever you want, and that was the one that was the best seller.
Speaker 2:I also did a beautiful book with Myra from Twigs and Honey a few years ago, and then another kind of mine, an actress, sasha Petersey. She was the star of Pretty Little Liars. She ended up. We've worked together on many events I mean on many circumstances and she did a book and we produced it together. Most of it was shot in my studio. She would stay here, we'd stay up in the middle of the night and we had a wonderful time. My kids are in it in some of the places we needed a model for here and there. So that was a really special one, and I have a few more books in me. I just haven't had the time to let them out yet. It's a lot, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, jackie and I have been talking about writing a book together for a long time, and maybe these days we'll actually do it.
Speaker 3:I think we need to. Yeah, we need to. But I mean, like Elizabeth, like I could see you doing a book on like right now, like female empowerment photography is really big in the industry and I don't know if you've mulled that over, but I see you doing something on that.
Speaker 2:I mean, I actually feel like, if you know, I think my work with women really touches into that Like I think that what empowerment is in terms of like capturing a woman, is that it's different with everybody, right.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:For some people and it's also different with every photographer. I think that's sort of an interesting alignment around, like there's room for all different kinds of women and energy and backgrounds and diversity and so on and so on, and there's also room for all of us as photographers, and I think that's such an important thing too, that everyone's voice and point of view I think is really important and adds to the community and conversation. And those two things are really parallel to me, because I am a woman and I'm a photographer and I think about that a lot. I think about those, the way those things intertwine for me.
Speaker 3:Cool yeah, go ahead, jason Sorry.
Speaker 1:No, no, jackie, you go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, it's true and intertwines for all of us, I think, especially as we see more inclusivity and see advertising that emphasizes more body positivity, and that we come in all different shapes and sizes, there's just so much diversity that was being excluded for so long. And in the advertising industry, even in photography, I mean, when I was at Rangefinder we would always get asked about like are you going to be more diverse on your covers or with your coverage of weddings? Not just like who the photographers were, but who they were photographing. And I think to a certain degree it's come a long way, but not fully there yet. You know, do you think about that when you're photographing?
Speaker 2:I don't know how many people know, but I mean, I think about it a lot. But my husband is black and our children are mixed. Obviously they're part of both of us and so I have, for personal reasons, been very, very invested in and aware of that, because I wanted my children to grow up seeing faces that they thought were reflective of them and I didn't. As a white woman raising black children, I knew that there was a lot I didn't know and I still learn as my children get older, and my especially my youngest daughter. We've been having some conversations about that recently.
Speaker 2:She's 16. She'll share with me her experiences and her point of view and things that I just wouldn't know about. And I think that early on, when I was, you know, doing some of the covers for, like, wedding magazines and stuff, I would often try to black, excuse me I would often try to book black models and other ethnicities and like really push having more diversity, and I got a lot of resistance and you know sometimes it would be okay, but yeah, it's just interesting because you know to be part of a family that's a little bit more diverse you know, you up in different ways and and I realized that I probably don't know, I don't know, I can't, I can't speak on it other than my own personal experience.
Speaker 2:But I think that there's so much beauty and diversity and so much texture and and it's important, and I hope that it does continue to become more normal for everybody to be in the same welcome in the same space.
Speaker 1:Well, it's great that your 16 year olds talking to you at all. Knowing someone that has a 16 year old, I didn't realize our kids were the same age.
Speaker 2:I also have a 16 year old and Ebb's inflows and it tends to be on her terms more than mine, which is fine, it's certain.
Speaker 1:Well, I have. So the thing that I noticed is that, like as the 16 year old daughter, some days I'm the good guy and sometimes my wife is the good guy and she's got, she's gotten very good at navigating those waters and we finally have kind of caught her on it.
Speaker 2:But the one thing that I don't feel that I should speak on this too much, because I feel like she might listen to that. She's wonderful and brilliant and also challenges me.
Speaker 1:Of course, of course I have the time, of course. Sorry, I digress no.
Speaker 2:I believe I think the word that comes up a lot in my house with my children is I'm very annoying apparently.
Speaker 1:Oh, so annoying or cringy.
Speaker 2:So there we go. It keeps me, yeah, it keeps me, it keeps me humble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but it is. I am very fascinated that the world that they're navigating as teenagers is so much different than the world that we navigated as teenagers. So true, and I don't, and I mean to circle that back around.
Speaker 2:Like I feel like that's really true with photography, right? Yeah, Because of social media, because of the way we can share and connect, in some ways it's incredible, Like I actually love it just as, like a consumer, If I can't sleep at night, I love to explore and find other people's photographs, and from all over the world. I think it's, I think it's a really wonderful thing that we have. However, I do think it, we also obviously tear ourselves down sometimes when we compare ourselves. So it's that balance is really tricky to find. I find for me it's like more of a mood thing. Like if I'm in a open, good mood and I'm like, oh, wow, that's cool and that's interesting, I can experience and enjoy other people's works and perspectives. And if I'm feeling stressed about whatever and I see something else that's amazing, I'm like, oh man, I kind of suck, you know, like I take it back on myself. So I think that there's so much good to it, but it is really tricky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, Go ahead.
Speaker 3:Jackie.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I'm curious.
Speaker 3:You know, like I don't know, if you are still photographing weddings at all or, to the amount you know, are you still photographing weddings. Have you phase that out? If so, was that a natural like so?
Speaker 2:no, I do still photograph weddings, but very few.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's sort of. It's sort of like I feel like you know, kind of, just go back to the milk bath, I mean, you know, like if you drop something in a body of water and it moves, it's like. That's kind of I feel that in myself as an artist, like there is a core of me and like what I'm looking for, what I bring, what I respond to, right, and but the truth is I'm in my fifties now, right, like my, my, my level of being able to like work in the way I did, like I was doing, you know, 14 hour days, two weddings a weekend, like when I was in my thirties I could just go, go, go, you know. And so it's different physically, I think, like my, my body is different and so, and I also think my, my desire to connect is different, like I would do a 600 person wedding and this I'm more drawn to meaningful gatherings that really value me as an artist and I'm really able to like maneuver through and capture things and not, you know, jason, to you know the one we did, where it's not frantic, like I'm not. I want to be brought in as an artist with people that really want me there and and I love that. But I only do a handful a year. I don't feel that same intense pressure Like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, the way I did when I was, you know, a few years ago.
Speaker 2:But I've also always been doing other work, so it's just like the balance of which I'm doing more has shifted right. I've always done a bit of editorial. I've always done private portraiture, whether it was bridles, engagement shoots, maternity, just straight up Boudoir women who want to honor their body or mark a moment in time, families and children. I literally was in my studio yesterday all day shooting a beautiful mother and her four-year-old daughter. We just it was incredible, and so I've always done some of that work. I'm also even doing some work with designers. Now I have a credible designer I work with and I do portraits for her and then also some of her spaces.
Speaker 2:So I have found for me my love and draw to making images is a constant in my life and I haven't ever just been one thing, I guess, kind of like this podcast. Right, I am more than one thing, and just because people knew me for one thing here or there, it didn't mean that I wasn't always a little bit more diverse on the inside right Even, like I have purposely curated my Instagram page for those who are aware of it where I really show and showcase women and I don't know why. I just kind of got into a groove. It's like one piece of my portfolio and I love showing different women.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean I don't still do weddings and have those photos. I just that space has become my women's space somehow, and I think that not only is it okay to be more than one thing, I think sometimes, when you're an entrepreneur and self-employed, there's a real benefit in that. Now, certainly, if people want to focus on and be only I don't know only a maternity photographer, an event photographer, that's fine for them, but for me, I found, creatively, I love the balance of having different types of work and I also found it's more sustainable because work always does ebb and flow. It's just the nature of it.
Speaker 1:Right, and it keeps you from being burned out too, which I think is what happens to many, many wedding photographers over the years. And I think that in my travels now over the years, I find that you know, I think that the ones that are able to find the balance, like you describe, are the ones who are able to continue to survive in this tough, tough industry and also are able to end up. I mean, as we were talking, I've been scrolling through your Instagram because I haven't been on there in a while. Oh, that's good. And people who are listening right now like, stop what you're doing, pause this podcast and go look at her Instagram if you haven't been there in a while. It is a beautiful body of work and also, as a teachable moment, is what photographers' Instagram feed should look like. Oh my God, that's a good stuff.
Speaker 3:It's stunning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a curated feed and it's a body of work and it's what it's supposed to be. It tells me everything about you in a few minutes, which is what social media is now. So, jackie, I don't know if you have any other questions, but I definitely want to talk about her new stuff as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's what I was going to have to launch. Okay, well, you go ahead then. Yeah, but I just piggybacked off what you just said, jason. A lot of photographers don't know how to curate their Instagram page and you go to it and it looks like you've opened the door to their messy closet. I think I love how curated yours is, thank you. It's just a good example of only showing your best work, but it still shows, like Jason said, everything and your aesthetic is there, so it's so beautiful. And going to the next step now, like, what are you doing now and what I know? You're working on something big. Wow, what's happening?
Speaker 2:So I think okay. So I will say this I think that all photographers, when you've been shooting for a while, really does have a body of work, and I think one of the skills and this I will give credit to the San Francisco Art Institute, because I did learn this there is that it's not enough to make the work. You have to be able to look at it and edit it and be able to distinguish Like.
Speaker 2:I think one of the biggest things people struggle with is like I mentor people privately and look at their portfolios and have small classes in my studio. One of the biggest thing I've noticed is a lot of times when people are choosing images for their website or social media, they actually don't know which of their photos is the best or why they should put it there. Sometimes people will put photos up that they're like well, I know I should have this kind of photo.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I learned in school that just the way the critiques were there was so visceral and so deep, like why did you make that? Is it successful? Is it touching people? Are you able to communicate visually what you intend? And I think that editing is actually a whole other skill set that you really have to learn and lean into. And for me, part of how I do that now this isn't a perfect process, but part of how I do that is when I shoot. I shoot very free. I shoot a lot some might say too much. My process is like very fluid and I'm like always going and trying to get more moments, and actually I think it's sort of funny I think I'm a natural light photographer because I can't stop, and so the only way I stop really is when God makes the sun go down. So I have to stop.
Speaker 2:If I was like lighting my studio, I would just never sleep, but with that in mind. So I shoot with a lot of freedom and then when I edit, I try to give myself a few days between the job and when I look at the work, and sometimes longer if it's. You know. I'm waiting for a film to come back and then when I look at it, I try to look at it without an emotional connection to making it, because I think we have to be very emotionally connected during a shoot to make really connected, beautiful images. That is probably one of the things I work on more than anything is how I connect and read people. And yet when I look at my work as an artist and editor, I try to be detached and pretty hard on myself no, that's not good, that's not good, you know, and focus on the few that really make it through the call. So, anyhow, that's one bit, and I think the other thing is I mean, jackie, you've known this for years, right? I have never let anyone videotape me or photograph me while I'm shooting. I've been real uncomfortable getting photographed at all, especially in those situations like WPPI. I would just be like, ah, like you know, and the reason for it is twofold. One, I am a little bit of an awkward introvert. I've gotten better over the years, I've matured and navigated, but growing up I was especially when I was young I was very, very shy and very introverted. Photography actually really gave me a way to connect to the world and, I think, saved me as a young girl in a lot of ways, because it allowed me to be in spaces that I probably wouldn't be in because I'd be too nervous. So that's one bit that's very real for me. The other part is, as I got into developing as a photographer, the work was the most important thing to me. The images that I made were the most important thing to me, and so I never fully understood why anyone wanted to see behind the scenes. Like it. Just it felt like. It felt like it would be a distraction from the reason that I was there right and I didn't really care about me. I don't, you don't need to see me, who cares? I want you to see the work. Let me show you this thing that I made, and so I just believe that so strongly and that, mixed with being a little bit introverted, it was just easy. No, like, no, it was just the like that just flowed out of my mouth, and I think what's changed now is that.
Speaker 2:So I've been working on this course you mentioned for a while. It's called the art of boudoir and really the word boudoir I think I've fully redefined it because it's not classical like boudoir naked sexy pictures Although there's nothing wrong with that. I do love sensuality, but the art of boudoir to me is really the art of photographing women with intention and respect and capturing something that's intimate and real, whether it's vulnerable, powerful or quiet or anonymous or just something in that space. And so when I really was thinking about my process and why capturing women was so important to me, I just I started filming myself. I created this project, this idea, and what happened was the thing that I had been afraid of before, which is distracting from the work that I was making. This course, this filming, was the work that I was making, so I got fully immersed in it the way I might with a photo shoot, and it was different because there was no other client right, there was nobody that I was filming or shooting for. I was doing it for myself and for this purpose, and so I realized it just opened up this whole way of communicating for me, and I quite love talking about photography Like I love this conversation right now. I love being connected to both of you through photography and I think my nervousness, or the part of me that was more uncomfortable being seen and watched in that way I don't know how to explain it it wasn't about a lack of love of connecting a photography, it was just I didn't think it mattered. I thought the photos mattered and I wanted to protect those at all costs because that was like my true love really, and so now to be able to share this. It's a pretty intensive, very diverse course.
Speaker 2:There's videos that are basically deconstructed photo shoots where I'm showing in real time. You'll see me like I'm there on camera, talking to camera, talking to the model, posing and basically saying all the things that are in my head that I would never really say on a shoot right, because a lot of my process happens internally. So I show all that. I have some really personal things and stories and photos throughout my life about how I got here and why I shoot the way I do. I have inspirational videos that are meant to be like I don't know.
Speaker 2:You know when you're stuck and you wanna go shoot something, but you're new and you can't figure it out. It's just watch that and it will kind of get you in that space of creation. And then there's I don't know, it's photo assignments. It's very multifaceted and I feel really proud of it, a little nervous just because I've never done something this revealing before, but I feel like, honestly, I made the course that I wish I could give my younger self. I feel like I wasted a lot of time being afraid, both personally and in my photo career, and if I could just talk to her, I don't know. I just feel like I could have helped her along a little bit, you know.
Speaker 3:And is the course? Does it go on over a certain amount of weeks and is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so it launches on October 24th, which I'm not sure, compared to where we're filming, how that works out, but it launches on October 24th and I'm going to. There's going to be a, basically a sale for the launch, which is going to last two weeks, so from October 24th to November 7th it will be on sale for a very reduced price, because I feel like I really want to touch photographers that are coming, they're starting out and I feel like sometimes, when you're starting out, you don't have a big budget, so I wanted to be as accessible as I could to people that maybe couldn't afford to learn from me in person. And yeah, I don't know, I'm just excited. It's it's sort of like all my 30 years of photography and why I photograph women, the way I do, boil down into this, this class.
Speaker 3:I think it's very exciting and I think that you know these. If you call them, want to call them students, they'll learn a lot from you. But you know, I think one thing people go into like courses like this, thinking they're going to walk away with Elizabeth Messina's eye and it's like no, you all have your own eye and, like we could, they can learn from you, be inspired by you, but it'd be fun to see, like, what they each create on their own. Are you going to have them do like I do?
Speaker 2:So I have some other things that I'm going to be unrolling after the course open. Some of it I'm not ready to talk about because we don't have the spaces open, but we are going to try to create some touch points and ways that people can interact with me directly. I'm going to do a couple of Facebook lives with some people groups that want, after people, buy the course. I don't. There's things happening, but I think the truth is what you said is so real. I, within the course, I definitely share my process. So so much of what I do and how I make work is bigger and deeper than just what camera I pick up, right. So I share all of those details of how I am able to connect with and meet women in their space, right, cause everyone's a little bit different. So the truth is there isn't just one way I am to get the work. The one way I am is very, very attentive I guess would be like attentive to who's in front of me and I do how, how I set my camera and all the things you know. I share all that, but the main point of it is really what you're saying is that I'm sharing all this with you so that it can touch you in some way and you can make work that is reflective of you, that the more people actually are themselves in their work, like it's sort of a collaboration right Between whoever you're photographing and yourself, your point of view, that that's what it is and you can't help but be that like you are, who you are.
Speaker 2:You know all this time later, if I look back at some work that I made like 30, 35 years ago, I can see myself in there. I can see and actually there's a moment in this in the course, where I take these images that I took in in India, which were like very photogercer portraits excuse me, they are very photogernalistic portraits and not at all to do with what we're doing today but I literally found a crop that I have, like I mean, I'm giving myself chills. I've recreated and searched and found this in all types of ways in my work, and so I feel like there's almost this process of like I mean, none of us are doing anything new, right, we're all part of this bigger cog of people that make work, but I found this piece of my work that I'm trying to work this crop out. Somehow I'm trying to, and I just thought that was amazing. Like if we look back at the body of our work any of us and you really pay attention, you'll see things. I mean, jason, I see you nodding Like you've got to have things that you're drawn to right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that part of being a really good photographer, part of being excellent, is finding those things that you're good at, that you're naturally drawn to, and then are you able to recreate it? Are you able to not recreate the photo, but the level of excellency, the consistency where, if someone saw your photo and your name wasn't on it would they know you made it Right?
Speaker 1:And I think that's always a challenge, it is a challenge.
Speaker 2:It is a challenge and also, can you do that and still evolve and change Like I don't know? Jason, if you saw recently on the, when you looked at my Instagram, I had that one thing where I did like nine squares of the one photo. I love doing that. No one likes it because they can't tell when they're showing, but I think it's really cool. But also it's a back dark backdrop and dark, dark woman.
Speaker 2:It's one of my favorite photos. Someone goes oh my God, your work is so different. I'm like no, no, it's the same, it's so me, it's just a different like. I just don't like again when you over curate, like I'm my own worst problem. I've curated so much People don't actually know I do have a breadth of work like that is, I don't know, it's not just you know, always so, so airy.
Speaker 1:But but we look for that. Sometimes, though, right, we want to shock them a little bit. They're coming for you, but then you want to give them something a little bit different, and then you want to know why that's not me, right.
Speaker 2:Well, and I also feel like, yeah, I think, yeah, I mean that's really true, but it's like I am a multifaceted, diverse person too.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I have I mean so much different work. You know like when I was in India, I carried 150 rolls of 35 millimeter black and white film in my backpack and my little Nikon FV2 that my mom gave me when I was 12. And I photographed for six months. Wow, and I came back I carried all that film the whole time and then I developed that film in my like closet in a basement, one roll at a time or two rolls at a time.
Speaker 1:Can you?
Speaker 2:imagine having that kind of patience to see your work Like that. I mean I had no choice.
Speaker 1:I can yes, yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know there? Yeah, I don't know, I think. I think the truth is I just I love being a photographer so much. I think it is one of the most beautiful ways to communicate. It crosses language barrier it crosses so many ways. People, if you see an image and you feel something you know you can't really see it, man, that's like there's nothing like that. Yeah, that's a drug. I might be addicted is what it is.
Speaker 1:Well, and that addiction is definitely made you who you are and why you have the success that you have. And you know I'm looking forward to seeing this video. I'm definitely gonna watch it, and I wanna add to that that you know you've been camera shy for all these years and you know not again getting back to when we worked together, but I learned a lot from watching you Again as an inspiration. I think people will get the same out of that. It's the way you express yourself. You're always an enjoyable person to talk to, but the way that you express yourself, you leave something with that person after the done talking to you, and I think they'll get that in the video, so I think people will enjoy that quite a bit. I will definitely, just as a side note, there'll be links to her books, her Instagram and, of course, her new course that's coming out, and if I definitely will encourage you, if there's a way to interact with you later on down the road that she said you were gonna do, do that as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, I do, I want to. I feel like this I think your regular people is really fulfilling.
Speaker 1:It's been a minute, so for sure. I know that when you did teach at WPPI or you did things at WPPI, I know that Jackie and I definitely needed to talk on you a little bit to get you to do it.
Speaker 2:But you know what Jason so interesting about that? That was terrifying.
Speaker 1:I know, I understand, I understand.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying anything against you, like, if you're walking to a room and there's 500 people that you're talking to, like that is surreal, because I'm just like dorky me like take pictures of it.
Speaker 2:But then the truth is this is so profound and I could never recreate it, but it happened. Every time Before I got, the two weeks before I got on stage to the moment I got on stage, I would feel really like overwhelmed and terrified, like I wow. But then the moment I got up there and took a breath and started talking about photography, it was like talking about someone I was in love with. Then I would just have a conversation and I did not feel nervous once I was up there talking and I think that that has been something I've kind of learned about myself and why, you know, within the context of the course, I'm like usually you know, I've either I'm either filming or creative directing how, when I'm in it, how someone else is filming me, and I'm like it's very intimate and so it actually really it fits with my personality and that it feels more intimate than talking to a room of 500 people, not, you know. Again, I was so grateful to be, but you had rooms of 1500, right, I was gonna say 1500, 1800 people.
Speaker 3:You were one of the first at WPPI who had like standing room, only rooms, and the fire chief had to come and shut it down at some point Like there were so many people flowing. Yeah, I just wanna like not that, because now they may be people there might get like 100 if they're looking. Now you had 15 to 1800 people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was crazy and honestly, like people were so nice, but it's always it's like a little scary when you look through the crowd and you think some people are like giving you like happy eyes and other people are like I don't like her Like, and then you just get like oh, you know what I mean. Some of the things you're stupid, like always, and I guess what?
Speaker 1:I feel is like Nobody in that room thinking you're stupid.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure no, no, I read your feedback.
Speaker 3:Nobody in that room, we all came to see what shoes you were wearing each time. Oh God, you also had the coolest shoes on.
Speaker 2:You and I were late on that, so well. I love good shoes and when.
Speaker 1:I first started doing wedding.
Speaker 3:I used to wear heels.
Speaker 2:I used to wear dresses and heels to wedding because I wanted to blend in with the guests. I was like after a while I was like I need sneakers and like, yeah, running and heels. I just have one thing I know we're running out of time but I think you'll find this funny too, jason.
Speaker 3:Like when I was interviewing like I would do photo of the days of Elizabeth's work or when I was doing the wedding unveiled book, I had to get all that the publisher wanted, like all the information you know, like the F-stop and the this and the that, and what camera and lens. I mean it was like I had a first little tiff because every time I asked her, elizabeth would say I used a contacts and a Zeiss lens and I had natural light and like I'm like I have 30 pages to fill of text, like you gotta give me more. But I think, like the reason I'm bringing it up also is because you built a whole career on it, wasn't about fans too, and you know you have your like trusty contacts that I'm sure you still use, and you're Zeiss lens and I know that you've used other things over time.
Speaker 3:But I think that you found something that worked and you stayed with it, but your work still evolved and, like people today, I think young photographers get so caught up and they need the latest equipment and things.
Speaker 2:And I just-. I mean, I have opinions about that. I feel like. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, oh no, I just love that you like.
Speaker 3:stay true to yourself and, like you, knew what worked for you and you, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that okay. There's a couple of things. First of all, I love cameras and before I had the fire that you know that took the studio, I had a collection of like 30 cameras. I was getting a little crazy, like I would go to antique stores. I had this, I had that, I had digital, I had, you know, and I've always like, when I found my contacts, I fell in love with it like a hundred percent, and I still have about four or five that I rotate in my studio. But I also I have actually shot digital throughout the years and I've always tried cameras and what wasn't that I it was like digital or film it was that I never found a digital camera.
Speaker 2:That resonated with me in the same way. So I understood it was a tool. I even started using it at receptions when I realized how great it was with the variations of the shutter what am I saying? The ISO, that I could actually shoot more freely and without a flash. So I really loved that. But now I think things are changing a lot Like. So I have been shooting with the Fuji GFX 100S which is a large format digital camera which is this great camera yeah.
Speaker 2:Incredible, like, dude like, and I haven't I haven't really said that about a digital camera. I have a lot of tools that are very great, but I love the way it really feels like like a cousin or a sister to my film.
Speaker 2:And with very little manipulation. I feel like it is really has the same. I have the same digital experience and in fact, in the course, I use it on several occasions more as a tool so people could see what I was shooting. I couldn't figure out how to do that with film and in the educational space. I thought, oh, I think it's more important that people see as I'm making so they understand my process more too. And so I think, at the end of the day, the most important thing is it doesn't matter what camera you have. It matters if you love it and you know how to use it. I think the more important thing is do you know how to use it? Because I mean, I've had holgas and I still have a Polaroid like in the corner behind me. I use my iPhone all the time.
Speaker 2:I love making images and, honestly, if someone put a new camera in my hand, I make, I play with it. I have no real judgment. Just because I fell in love with something and stayed true to it because it really served me Doesn't mean I hated or had any like real negative opinion about what anyone else did. It was just for me, and now that I found a digital option that works with my film. That's been very freeing. So I love technology. I'm just not I'm not a bandwagon kind of person. I don't just jump on, I have to like, try it and feel like I can find my own way with it. So I think anyone that's listening whatever camera you have, love that camera, play with that camera, put it on manual, see if you can, like you know, figure it out. It doesn't matter what you have, just that you know how to use it well.
Speaker 3:Wait, and I bought an A7, sony A7S3. Exactly, it's like years ago. I have no idea how to use it. So, anybody, if you're listening and you want it like I, will sell it.
Speaker 1:So, like I love it, I'm gonna come to New York this summer and I'm gonna teach you how to use a jacket. You're not telling it.
Speaker 3:I've got one with it, but I don't know how to use it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think anyway videos for that stuff now, though you can find it Right. No, I know Anywho.
Speaker 1:We should wrap up there, because we're almost at an hour here. So yeah, like I said, make sure you check the links in the show notes. Elizabeth, it is so great catching up with you, and Jackie, I'll let you wrap up here.
Speaker 3:It's been fabulous and you know I'm so glad that you were able to do this today, Elizabeth. I look forward to seeing the course. If I can audit it for free I'm kidding, I got you girl, but yeah, no and I'm excited to see, like, what comes out of it if you're doing a show or if it comes out of it as well.
Speaker 2:I got lots of plans. I got lots of plans. And I will say, just one point of reference. It's not one video. It's all videos? No, I just want to say like it's like.
Speaker 3:Like a library of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a library of my brain and my life and my work and how you can you know what you can take from it and learn from it.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, this podcast will come out either right before or just shortly after, so you won't have to wait too long if you're listening to this, or it will already be out, so make sure you check it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this has been such a pleasure and, honestly, like Jason, the memory lane that came like wow. I did not remember that. So I'm so glad you brought up Jamaica and Jackie. I adore you.
Speaker 3:It's like two things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, both of you so much, and thank you for having me and making this, I don't know, just such a nice conversation.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you. All right, that'll do it for this week's episode. Jackie, thank you for being here as well, and that'll do it for something new every week. If you'd like to be on one of our shows I'm not hard to find, jackie's not hard to find Reach out to us. We'd love to have you, we'd love to hear your story as well, and we will see you on the next episode of something new every week. Take care everyone.
Speaker 2:Bye guys, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks again for tuning into something new every week. I hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you do enjoy these episodes, I love it. If you hit that subscribe button on, however, you're listening to this Again. We want to thank our sponsor, Millers Lab MillersLabcom great company. If you're not familiar with them, you should go check them out. Thanks again for tuning into something new every week. We will see you back here next week.